College Counseling

DEB OTEY: Welcome to Thunder and Thoughts, the podcast from the Out-of-Door Academy where curiosity sparks understanding. I'm Doctor Deb Otey, head of school at Out-of-Door, and in each episode, we'll sit down with the educators, leaders, and experts who know our school best to answer your questions, share ideas, and give you a closer look at the ODA experience.

Today's Thunder cast calls for a chance of clarity with a high probability of confidence as we tackle one of the biggest topics on every family's mind: the college admissions process. Helping us navigate today's topic is Derek Gueldenzoph, our director of college counseling. Derek, welcome to Thunder and Thoughts. And can we just call you Mr. G?

DEREK (MR. G): Mr. G works.

DEB OTEY: Okay, great. That's great. I really appreciate that. Thank you so much. We can't wait to learn about you. You're brand new to ODA. We're thrilled to have you here. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

DEREK (MR. G): Thanks. So, yeah. So I started this journey in education and helping students navigate the college search process about 30 years ago. Um, and that started on the college side, so I got into college admissions. Loved working it. Liked it so much that my boss said, you should go get your master's. And so I did. It was a wonderful program, college student personnel. It was basically how students learn, develop and grow.

Um, and that launched me to look from Wisconsin all the way down to Texas. So, um, small school, small liberal arts college, dean of admissions. Um, did the same kind of a thing up in Ohio and then up in Wisconsin. So that first stretch was really all on the admissions side. Come to my school!

DEB OTEY: Yes.

DEREK (MR. G): And then about 14 years ago, I made the switch to the high school side and began working at a boarding school in New Hampshire. And that launched the chance to explore other places than just where I work. It's been a wonderful experience, and I'm super excited now to make the trek down south to Florida and work with a different population.

DEB OTEY: Great. Well, we're so happy that you're here, and you're going to love it. You're going to love it here, Derek. Um, so one of the things that makes your perspective so unique, which you just pointed out in your introduction, is that you've really sat on both sides of the table. You've been on the admissions side. You've been on the high school side. So what's the biggest myth that families believe about how colleges actually read the applications?

DEREK (MR. G): Gosh, there's a couple. But if I were to pick one, I would say the biggest one is that it's a straight GPA and test score, almost like a cutoff line. And it really is much more nuanced than that. And that's where you'll hear some schools talk about a holistic review. And that's really trying to unpack that. It's trying to get beyond just sorting the applications simply by test scores and grades.

DEB OTEY: Okay, great. And that's good for them to understand, that their kids are not only the grades they've made over the last few years. They are other things, right?

DEREK (MR. G): Absolutely.

DEB OTEY: Yes. And so, from your years as a dean of admissions, how do you counsel kids like our students who are applying? How do you counsel them on that, based on your experience on the other side?

DEREK (MR. G): Yeah, I think the number one takeaway is to make sure that students don't take it personally. Admissions decisions are not personal. Um, the reality of things is that the majority of colleges have far more qualified applicants than they could possibly admit. And so the numbers are really what's getting in the way. If, uh, you think about most of the selective colleges out there, they'll tell you that between 80 and 90% of the students that apply are admissible.

DEB OTEY: So they can all get in.

DEREK (MR. G): They could all get in. They all have the grades or the test scores or something else that, if they admitted them, the college would feel confident that the student would do well there, would succeed and graduate. So it's not that they're not qualified. It's just there's not enough space.

DEB OTEY: There's not enough space. That's such an important thing for our students and their families to remember. Yes. So the other thing that I thought is interesting is you've been at both boarding and day schools. So two different types of independent schools: boarding, obviously, where they stay there full time, and then day, where they just come during the day. And we're a day school. So now that you're at ODA, what do you think? What advantages do ODA students have in this process?

DEREK (MR. G): Yeah, I think that there are a couple. One of them is that they've got some time, and they've got some ability to do some things outside of the school experience that really enhance, ultimately, both their application and, really, when you get down to it, them as an individual. So the time to be able to do things like community service, the opportunity and the availability to do some of those things.

Um, but at the same point in time, right, one of the things that they're really going to take advantage of at ODA is a phenomenal college advising staff. Not to boast on ourselves, but, right, I mean, we do have three dedicated full-time college counselors, and that's a luxury. It certainly is something that doesn't exist at public schools. Um, and really that one-on-one opportunity to be able to work through, find what they're interested in, and match that to the appropriate college or university really, really sets things apart.

DEB OTEY: Yes. So the admissions landscape, just like when I met with Julie Bianchi to talk about the academic landscape, doesn't look like it did when we were in school. And surely the application process doesn't look like it did when we were applying for college. So there are always trends, things in your industry that change every year. That's why we expect you guys to know what's going on, so that you can help lead us in the right direction. So maybe share a trend with us so that we can better understand how the landscape is always changing.

DEREK (MR. G): Yeah, I think there's a couple. I think we might actually reach the tipping point with the Common Application. The number of schools that each student is applying to is genuinely increasing. And as much as we try to fight that creep and try to keep things down, the reality and the math of things is working against us.

Um, and so that's one piece. You see this slight growth in the number of schools that a student is applying to, um, because it is a little bit easier to do. The Common Application does that, and the Common Application has grown. It's gone from having, oh geez, 500 or 600 colleges and universities that accept it to over 1,200 that now use it. And that growth, particularly in the public school realm, is really feeding that opportunity for students.

DEB OTEY: So another trend I've heard about, Derek, is test optional. And that conversation has changed things a little bit. Where do you think things stand today with test optional? And how should families be thinking about standardized testing?

DEREK (MR. G): Yeah, I mean, test optional really became in vogue through the pandemic, right? And that was practical. Schools couldn't have students sit for the test. So if you can't take the test, colleges can't use the test, right. Um, we're seeing mixed results right now in terms of who's gone back to using and requiring the standardized test, SAT or ACT, and who hasn't.

But foundational to your question, right, is the test optional piece. So my advice to families is this: the only way that it's optional is if you take it in the first place. Right. So they should take the SAT and/or the ACT. They should probably even do a little test preparation before either of those tests. Um, then once they digest that score, typically at the end of junior year, we can sit down and say, okay, what's our strategy? Is this the score that we want to use in the application process because it accentuates your application? Or does the score really not reflect your true abilities? And now we can engage in the test optional piece of things.

DEB OTEY: But if you don't take it, then you don't really have a conversation. There's no option.

DEREK (MR. G): That's right.

DEB OTEY: Okay. That makes a lot of sense. So families also hear about record numbers of applications, which you mentioned earlier, and historically low acceptance rates. So if we have a parent who went to a highly selective college, is the acceptance rate the same now as when they got in? Or have those acceptance rates probably dropped?

DEREK (MR. G): They've dropped. Without even hesitation, they have dropped. And that's just the reality of the numbers piece, as we talked about earlier. Um, and I think that one of the things that you see with this, and with the trends and where things are going, is more and more schools engaging in some level of early application.

Um, and in all honesty, right, to go back to that college lens, with my college hat on, that's self-serving. Right. They feel better talking to their boards about their application numbers if they know early on that their volume is there, that they have enough applications to meet their class. Um, and so you'll see two different things. You'll see Early Decision, ED, and you'll see Early Action, EA.

Early Decision is the one that is binding, where students are saying, this is my first choice. If I get in here, I will forget every other college exists, and this is where I'll matriculate. Um, Early Action is the non-committal version of things. Apply early, find out early, but still have until May to make your decision about where you want to attend.

Either of them gives colleges that early read on what applications are like, and it gives them a little bit more time to read applications. As you have more applications, it takes more time to get through them. So early helps them get through that.

DEB OTEY: Okay. And there's some strategy behind all this. And that's why we really appreciate you and your team, because there's the Early Decision and the Early Action. And then when you're building a list, that's really important. You want a family to build a list that has different types of schools in it. And you all kind of have your own internal language, and you'll teach the kids this. But what do those lists look like?

DEREK (MR. G): We do. Yeah, we want to talk them through it. You'll hear us say balanced list. And when we say a balanced list, it's doing a couple of different things. One of them is an assessment of how likely we think it is that their application will be accepted at that particular school. So at the base level, you've got schools that we might refer to as a bit more likely.

DEB OTEY: Likely.

DEREK (MR. G): We think that, based on your grades and your test scores and everything else about you, the most likely outcome is that, yes, you would get accepted. Then you'll have another band above that that we'll call target schools.

DEB OTEY: Target.

DEREK (MR. G): Right. And that really means that your profile fits right in the target range of where a school is accepting their kids from. And then we'll kind of cap that with some reach schools. And when I say reach, it really means that that particular college or university accepts less than 20% of their applicants. Right. So it's not that I don't think that you're admissible, going back to that other part of the conversation. But I just have no good way to predict.

DEB OTEY: You're qualified, but so is everybody else applying.

DEREK (MR. G): Right. We can't tell. So it's a bit more of a reach. And reach sounds better than gambling.

DEB OTEY: I like reach.

DEREK (MR. G): Right. Reach works for that. And we also want to make sure that we round that out on the financial side. So we might have some schools that are prone to give merit scholarships, or schools on the list that are known for generous financial aid, need-based financial aid, because we want to make sure that a family is covered in all directions.

DEB OTEY: And that's probably why you actually meet with families along the way, because you don't want to build a list that a family wouldn't even be able to afford in the long run. There's some strategy here for the family, too.

DEREK (MR. G): Exactly.

DEB OTEY: Deciding what their financial investment in their child's education is going to be. So that's an important part too. So a topic I've been talking about a lot in these podcasts is artificial intelligence, AI. How is that impacting either the reading or the creation of the applications?

DEREK (MR. G): Yeah. And I think it's getting used on both sides.

DEB OTEY: Yeah.

DEREK (MR. G): Right. So the colleges are using it a little bit with that volume. Um, and the way that we're seeing it most frequently is that a college can use it to do some of the grade recalculation that it used to take humans to do, um, poring over a transcript. Now they get the transcript digitally. Now they can employ AI to make sure that they're using their own weighting system. Right. We at ODA do a weighted GPA. We do a half-point weight for honors. We do a full point for APs. But that's not standard across...

DEB OTEY: Every school is different. Correct. So you can't really compare our GPA to someone else's, because they're all going to be different, right. But the colleges recalculate them.

DEREK (MR. G): Yeah. They've got to have some way to do that. And recalculating is great, and it's a good use of AI, because it's not doing any evaluation. It's really just a summary.

DEB OTEY: Just the numbers.

DEREK (MR. G): Just the numbers. Um, on the student side, right, you're seeing some students get a little bit creative with list building, because they can put in some parameters in terms of what they're looking for. Um, AI actually does an excellent job of trip planning. So if you're looking to do a series of college visits, um, you can put into AI, here are the schools that we're looking to visit. And it does a great job of mapping from one school to the next, with time built in and where to stop along the way. It might give a good recommendation for a burger or something like that. Ice cream.

DEB OTEY: Great.

DEREK (MR. G): Absolutely.

DEB OTEY: I mean, if you're going to go back to my old stomping grounds, North Carolina, there are lots of great colleges there. It could create a trip for you, plan it out for you. That's a great idea. Okay. I never even thought about that. I learned something today, Derek. Thank you.

So beyond transcripts, which everyone says are really, really important, are colleges actually looking at other things about kids? And if so, what are they looking at?

DEREK (MR. G): They absolutely are. Um, the transcript is the foundational element. It probably is what just about every college is going to look at first. It's going to be their first impression of the student, because they're going to frame what the student is like on paper, and the rest of their activities, based on what classes they took and how they did in those classes.

Um, but most of the time is spent on other things. Um, so how does the student round out their day? What makes them interesting? What opportunities have they had? So we're talking about things like activities and involvement. We're talking about sports and athletics. We're talking about music and the arts. We're talking about, um, work, a job, those sorts of things. We're talking about community service. Right. What are all those different components that eat up hours outside of the class day?

Because now they can reframe that GPA with something else in mind: oh, well, they also spent two hours a day at practice, and they spent more time on a job or a commute. Right. And so it really puts the grades in a different perspective, because colleges want students on their campus who are going to contribute to campus life there. So those other things they're looking for in the application, um, help them envision what that student's going to be like on their campus.

DEB OTEY: And whether they want them there.

DEREK (MR. G): And whether they want them there or not. Absolutely.

DEB OTEY: Good. Well, from what I'm hearing you say, you've talked a lot about building a relationship with the family. We've talked about finances. We've talked about fit. This is really important. So what do you see as the parents' role in this process? Because everyone listening is probably thinking, all right, but what do I need to do? What do I need to do?

DEREK (MR. G): Right. Absolutely. You know, I think that a parent's number one role is being a cheerleader, right? I mean, they're there to support their child through the ups and through the downs. And the college process is no stranger to ups and downs. It's likely that students will experience both at some point.

And that's not saying that, you know, students are going to get denied at all the places or anything like that. It really is that schools will fall on the list, or fall off the list, I should say. Right, because they might have an interest, they go and visit, and then they're disappointed in what they saw or experienced. So it's there to help them navigate those ups and downs, but certainly to champion the successes and to support them with that.

We talked a little bit, too, about those college visits. Right. That's a great way for families to be connected and involved. Um, colleges want the students at the forefront of the application process, but they absolutely expect mom or dad to be along logistically, right? Literally along for the ride. Right. So helping a student get from point A to point B, transportation, those sorts of things, um, that's huge.

DEB OTEY: Yeah. No, that's great. But not driving the train. Not driving the train.

DEREK (MR. G): At least in the passenger seat.

DEB OTEY: Yes. Right. Okay. Great, Derek. So for many students, this college process can be really stressful. Um, so I'm going to kind of ask this question two ways. In what ways can parents help, or not help, with the stress of the application? And then how does your team keep all this in mind and help students?

DEREK (MR. G): Yeah, it's a delicate balance for sure. Um, and there's no one-size-fits-all solution, right? But what I have heard a couple of families talk about in the past, and what we've encouraged for some of them, is this notion of making sure that it's not all-consuming.

DEB OTEY: Yeah.

DEREK (MR. G): Right. Um, and so whether that's setting it aside so we only talk about college one night a week, some parameters like that, or a timer so maybe it only gets a half hour or an hour of the conversation. Or, you know, back to the trips to visit a college, right? If a parent is helping drive or riding along, depending on what that looks like, um, it shouldn't be the entirety of the conversation. It shouldn't be, you know, 20 questions afterwards. Allow them some time and space to sit with it. Um, because they'll share their thoughts.

DEB OTEY: They will. And, you know, we've both been through this process as parents. We have. And for the parents doing this right now, this is actually their kids' senior year. I mean, don't let the stress of the college process be the only thing that you and your child remember about senior year, because there are a lot of fun things to do in senior year.

DEREK (MR. G): So many fun things.

DEB OTEY: So, yeah. Enjoy that. And then your office, you guys know it's stressful. So what systems, traditions or habits do you have in place to make it a little more comfortable for kids?

DEREK (MR. G): Yeah, I mean, a lot of things happen one-on-one.

DEB OTEY: Yes.

DEREK (MR. G): And that's intentional. It's to give them that space and that comfort level with us, so they can experience those highs or lows. Um, you know, and it's everything down to the little things, right? When you walk into the college office, there are comfy sofas for a reason.

DEB OTEY: Comfortable sofas.

DEREK (MR. G): Students need to be able to come in, sit down, decompress, take a breath, um, and then have that time and space to work with us in a comfortable environment. Right. Um, candy. Candy always.

DEB OTEY: If all else fails, chocolate.

DEREK (MR. G): Candy, snacks, food. Absolutely.

DEB OTEY: Okay. That's great, I love it. I'll come and visit when I'm stressed. Okay, that sounds great.

So as we finish up, Derek, a family could be anywhere on this journey. They might have a senior who's right in the middle of this. They might have a freshman, and they're thinking, okay. Or they might have a fifth grader, and they're just dreaming of what it might look like when their fifth grader gets to the high school part of their career. What advice do you have for our parents out there at ODA?

DEREK (MR. G): Yeah, and I think the best piece of advice I can give harkens back to something you just mentioned, right? It's don't rush this. Live. Live in the moment. Um, because we'll get there, but there's no need to rush ahead. Um, and everything about what we do is intentional in the moment. Um, and if we can live and embrace that, whether it's in fifth grade, eighth grade or even senior year, it really frames things and gives us permission to just enjoy.

DEB OTEY: Well, as you've been talking, I've been taking deep breaths, and I've actually become less stressed about the college process listening to you. So I can't wait for our families to meet with you and your team. It's going to be a great experience. And when May 1st arrives, they're all going to go somewhere, and it's going to be awesome.

DEREK (MR. G): They're going to have that place. They're going to have a place on their t-shirts. It'll be awesome.

DEB OTEY: Yes, it'll be great. Well, thank you, Derek. We're so glad you joined us today to help bring a little clarity to what can often feel like a really overwhelming process.

To our families, thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation gives you greater confidence and a better understanding of how ODA partners with students and parents at every step of their journey. If today's episode inspired a question, we'd love to hear it. Thunder and Thoughts is built around the questions that matter most to our families, so keep them coming. Your question may inspire a future episode. So until next time, I'm Deb Otey. Thanks for listening.